by Ancient Order » Thu May 26, 2022 10:07 pm
Ruh roh. I've got a few builds under my belt, and maybe got over confident in my skills. This was a beautiful build - FDE V2, and I installed the upgrades from the git go. I've never done that in previous builds. Lesson learned. It's got a Long Ranger trigger shoe, Tyrant extended controls, NDZ extractor, Lone Wolf 3.5 connector, Rook rear rails, Rook pins, all the rest OEM. I drop tested it with a full mag of home made dummy rounds (loaded up 124 gn rn, no primer or powder). Drop on the rear - trigger safety failed. When I picked it up and touched the trigger, it "fired". Drop on the nose - it ejected a round and loaded another round. Really weird. No problems dropping on the sides, top, or bottom. I really hate to strip it down and start swapping parts, but it looks like it's inevitable. First time troubleshooting drop test failures, so any suggestions would be appreciated!
by Ancient Order » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:59 pm
WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:09 amThat sounds about like what I expected to hear. I bought mine from their official Ebay retailer cause there was a deal. They didn’t want to replace it cause I didn’t buy it directly from their site. I back and forthed with them for a good minute. They blamed it on everything but their part (I must be a bad builder or my frame was out of spec etc.) “You should take it to a real gunsmith” Finally I just said, just send me the damn replacement part, I know what I’m doing. I almost sent them an email back when I got the replacement with a side by side photo of how obvious it was that the spring material and thickness was completely different. They never asked for the old one in return, soo I fixed it and modified it and it currently lives on my newest build. So, when I inquired about an exchange of the defective part, they responded with: "Sorry, we don't do straight exchanges. You can return it via our RMA Protocol (https://www.tyrantcnc.com/return-policy), and then purchase the parts your need. If you make a replacement order, please send us the new order # and we wont charge you a restocking fee on the return. Thanks for your order." I wrote them back expressing my displeasure in the quality of their parts and that they don't stand behind their products. I also asked them why they would re-stock a defective part, and the probability I would receive another defective part if I ordered again. Finally, I mentioned something about their reputation in the builder community if they don't stand behind their products. I got no response (or apology), but I did get an immediate order confirmation from them for a new slide stop, no charge. That's great, but gotta admit, their customer service sucks.
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:09 am
That sounds about like what I expected to hear. I bought mine from their official Ebay retailer cause there was a deal. They didn’t want to replace it cause I didn’t buy it directly from their site. I back and forthed with them for a good minute. They blamed it on everything but their part (I must be a bad builder or my frame was out of spec etc.) “You should take it to a real gunsmith” Finally I just said, just send me the damn replacement part, I know what I’m doing. I almost sent them an email back when I got the replacement with a side by side photo of how obvious it was that the spring material and thickness was completely different. They never asked for the old one in return, soo I fixed it and modified it and it currently lives on my newest build.
by Ancient Order » Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:44 pm
WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:28 amThat’s awesome, I’m soo glad you got the trigger issue resolved. I’ve had to replace one of the Tyrant slide stops before as well. Out of spec spring. When I held it up next to the replacement one it was obvious that the bad spring was thinner and a darker color. You may get some pushback from them about your return/exchange, remain firm and they’ll send you out one. Yeah, they're being a PITA. Forcing me to fill out RMA form, pay return shipping, then wait however long to get a hopefully not defective part back. Kind of disappointed that they attached their part to a piece of crap aftermarket part.
by Ancient Order » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:06 pm
Hawkeye wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:00 amI had a couple of Tyrant slide stop springs break a year ago but all the stuff I have bought recently has been fine. your build is looking good !!! Thanks! I already have some ideas for this one. Still need to decide on a magwell, if any, and might as well spring for a couple TD mag baseplates. And I reeeely need to get to the range and function check several builds. Just need to stop buying parts and get some range ammo
by Hawkeye » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:00 am
I had a couple of Tyrant slide stop springs break a year ago but all the stuff I have bought recently has been fine. your build is looking good !!!
by WE4PONXYZ » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:28 am
That’s awesome, I’m soo glad you got the trigger issue resolved. I’ve had to replace one of the Tyrant slide stops before as well. Out of spec spring. When I held it up next to the replacement one it was obvious that the bad spring was thinner and a darker color. You may get some pushback from them about your return/exchange, remain firm and they’ll send you out one.
by Ancient Order » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:01 pm
Update - FIXED!! (Almost) I finally got the replacement trigger safety from Andy at Ranger Proof. Big shout out. They were swamped after Memorial day and making some changes to the Hybrid Ranger, but he got it to me. Installed the new safety and it works like a champ. Rock solid. If you ever have to do this, pay attention to the safety spring, making sure it's properly seated on both ends. Sounds obvious I know, but it's not exactly easy. Took me 3 tries. I also installed Rook front locking block. Already had the rear rails. After reassembly, had an interesting problem. It would "fire" on reset. It looked like the new locking block raised the slide enough to just barely catch the lug, and just the tiny movement of riding the reset was enough to let it fire. So, I "adjusted" the trigger bar seer a la Johnny Glocks and was able to get about 60+% coverage on the striker lug. Also gave the connector a tiny tweak inward (LW 3.5) After all that, she runs like a champ and passed all drop tests. One last little problem - the Tyrant Designs slide stop is out of spec. It's a major pain to get it installed and it looks like the little tang that anchors the spring is too long. It's chewing up the frame and top of the magazine. So, I'll have to contact them and get a replacement. Next step - sights (DXT night sights) and optic (Swampfox Justice).
by Ancient Order » Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:53 pm
WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:12 pmCurious to know about the full mag thing, I’m sure it might make a slight difference but shouldn’t be anything crazy right? The only parts that should be coming in contact with the mag is the magwell, mag release and slide release. Now a full mag might put extra upwards pressure on a slide release but enough to lift the slide up enough to change the seer engagement by 10% or more idk? I would love if someone could test this on a build with 75% or more engagement and see how much it changes on a full mag. I would test this but I wanna be safe and don’t have a full mags worth of dummy rounds. Fwiw, I haven't seen any noticable difference with a full mag vs no mag. But all my slides are pretty close tolerances and I've only had to peen one set of rails to tighten it up. I'm always nervous bending the cruciform/seer, a la Johnny Glock, where he says "see, look how easy this snaps off".
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:12 pm
Curious to know about the full mag thing, I’m sure it might make a slight difference but shouldn’t be anything crazy right? The only parts that should be coming in contact with the mag is the magwell, mag release and slide release. Now a full mag might put extra upwards pressure on a slide release but enough to lift the slide up enough to change the seer engagement by 10% or more idk? I would love if someone could test this on a build with 75% or more engagement and see how much it changes on a full mag. I would test this but I wanna be safe and don’t have a full mags worth of dummy rounds.
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:04 pm
Ancient Order wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:56 pm My bad. Just checked the Glock armorer's manual and it calls for 2/3 engagement. The manual doesn't say whether to insert a magazine for checking the engagement, but I seem to recall MGB saying to check it with a full mag inserted since this will push the slide up and thereby decrease your engagement. Plus, the check doesn't matter if there's no pews in it. Since I only use OEM internals, it looks like there's a big parts swapping party coming which will definitely hinder my bourbon sampling for a few days. Probably for the best. I might be dumb, but I ain't stupid. I would never think that my brother as a matter of factoid far from it I would assume. Keep in mind I use pretty much OEM parts on my builds sooo I’m not gonna be the guy to blame it on not using OEM trust me.
by Ancient Order » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:56 pm
WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:02 amRAMjetta wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:23 amAncient Order wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:43 pm It calls for 1/3 engagement. I believe he's right sir. Me personally I go for ½ to ⅔ engagement for it to be drop safe. I'll find the Glock diagram to confirm. Brb. 75% or more is suggested on P80’s/glocks to ensure drop safety. I prefer 70% or more my self with all 3 builds I’ve done having at least 70%-90%. I have a few diagrams for reference, but seem to have misplaced one of the best ones sadly. Example of proper seer engagement. 948ED737-8D13-4BDB-8A03-5BCBA273AE08.jpeg C5F68CD8-766E-4C35-AD3C-AFC9AF118167.jpegDBBBB3CA-B330-4B25-A553-62E60BC460FB.jpeg My bad. Just checked the Glock armorer's manual and it calls for 2/3 engagement. The manual doesn't say whether to insert a magazine for checking the engagement, but I seem to recall MGB saying to check it with a full mag inserted since this will push the slide up and thereby decrease your engagement. Plus, the check doesn't matter if there's no pews in it. Since I only use OEM internals, it looks like there's a big parts swapping party coming which will definitely hinder my bourbon sampling for a few days. Probably for the best. I might be dumb, but I ain't stupid.
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:02 am
RAMjetta wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:23 amAncient Order wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:43 pmJames wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:28 amI could be mistaken but I think the manual calls for 75 - 80% striker to cruciform engagement as a minimum. Your a good bit off that even if the trigger safety tab is the majority if the issue. Just saying.... btw do you carry appendix It calls for 1/3 engagement. I believe he's right sir. Me personally I go for ½ to ⅔ engagement for it to be drop safe. I'll find the Glock diagram to confirm. Brb. 75% or more is suggested on P80’s/glocks to ensure drop safety. I prefer 70% or more my self with all 3 builds I’ve done having at least 70%-90%. I have a few diagrams for reference, but seem to have misplaced one of the best ones sadly. Example of proper seer engagement.
by RAMjetta » Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:23 am
Ancient Order wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:43 pmJames wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:28 amI could be mistaken but I think the manual calls for 75 - 80% striker to cruciform engagement as a minimum. Your a good bit off that even if the trigger safety tab is the majority if the issue. Just saying.... btw do you carry appendix It calls for 1/3 engagement. I believe he's right sir. Me personally I go for ½ to ⅔ engagement for it to be drop safe. I'll find the Glock diagram to confirm. Brb.
JettaMan OUT!
by Ancient Order » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:43 pm
James wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:28 amI could be mistaken but I think the manual calls for 75 - 80% striker to cruciform engagement as a minimum. Your a good bit off that even if the trigger safety tab is the majority if the issue. Just saying.... btw do you carry appendix It calls for 1/3 engagement.
by James » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:28 am
I could be mistaken but I think the manual calls for 75 - 80% striker to cruciform engagement as a minimum. Your a good bit off that even if the trigger safety tab is the majority if the issue. Just saying.... btw do you carry appendix
by RAMjetta » Sat May 28, 2022 11:37 pm
OUTFRIGGINSTANDING! We knew Andy would getcha straight
JettaMan OUT!
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat May 28, 2022 1:33 pm
Hell yeah!!!
by Ancient Order » Sat May 28, 2022 1:12 pm
Got a call back from Andy at RP. Super helpful. He said the trigger safety failure is a known issue on some P80's. It has to do with the curvature on the back of the safety and the polymer of the P80. He's sending me a modified safety that is flat on the back along with spare spring and set screw. He said it would 100% fix this problem. Have to remove the trigger assembly to replace the safety, so I'll give the seer a little tweak while it's out and update this on the results.
by WE4PONXYZ » Sat May 28, 2022 10:02 am
Oh yeah I completely agree that besides the safety not functioning, that is not enough seer engagement either.
by RAMjetta » Sat May 28, 2022 1:47 am
Hawkeye wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:37 pmMy guess would be your seer engagement as the drop test failure, but you still have something going on with the failure in the trigger safety. The trigger safety looks like in needs that little plastic bump, like the trigger is for another model frame. Just a heads up, when it comes to problem solving internal working of Glocks, I can only give a guess. I'll second that. The Sear engagement looks a little low.
JettaMan OUT!
by Hawkeye » Fri May 27, 2022 5:37 pm
My guess would be your seer engagement as the drop test failure, but you still have something going on with the failure in the trigger safety. The trigger safety looks like in needs that little plastic bump, like the trigger is for another model frame. Just a heads up, when it comes to problem solving internal working of Glocks, I can only give a guess.
by Ancient Order » Fri May 27, 2022 4:50 pm
RAMjetta wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 8:32 amJames wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:18 amIf you don't already have one, I suggest you get or make an armor's slide cover to check sear / striker engagement on every build you do. Also don't forget to do the a la Johnny Glock magwell to bench "hammer test". The cruciform need to be tested with an impact to the magwell to see it will fall and release the striker. If you have an overtravel adjustment that is the place to start looking for issues, I like to see a 1/8 of side tab sitting on the shelf. Secondarily the cruciform angle as well. If the described along with your sounds like either weak or ill fitting trigger safety tab don't fix your issues. Get that armor's plate on and post some picks of your striker engagement. BTW: I have seen some really weird and off the wall stuff through the years with self appointed "Glock Armor's" builds on Glocks, aftermarket frame and mixes of parts just adds possibilities for more weirdness. It only takes one thing or a combo of two lesser strange things to equal an unsafe or at best a "ragged edge" firearm just looking for a time and place to happen, like maybe fine for the first couple hundred but then something wears in and now you have an issue four or five range trips later. James I was gonna suggest the same. I believe Acient has an Armorers back plate though. Definitely sounds like a trigger bar to trigger housing relationship issue. And yes please post some pics so we can see what's going on. The cruciform is falling off the shelf for some reason, which as We4ponXYZ said, could be the trigger bar or it could be an out of spec bar or out of spec housing. Are they both OEM? Aww...C'mon man...of COURSE they're OEM! Super hard to get a good picture of the seer engagement, but I took a couple pics. I think it's good. My current theory is that the cruciform is falling off the shelf because the trigger safety is failing, which allows the trigger shoe to function as if it's being pulled. I think the trigger bar and housing are functioning normally. I wish I could post a short video showing the trigger safety test. When I pull back on either side of the trigger, the safety just rides up the frame and depresses itself from the back and the trigger fires. This is pissing me off because it's distracting me from Memorial day shopping!
by Ancient Order » Fri May 27, 2022 4:15 pm James wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:18 amIf you don't already have one, I suggest you get or make an armor's slide cover to check sear / striker engagement on every build you do. Also don't forget to do the a la Johnny Glock magwell to bench "hammer test". The cruciform need to be tested with an impact to the magwell to see it will fall and release the striker. If you have an overtravel adjustment that is the place to start looking for issues, I like to see a 1/8 of side tab sitting on the shelf. Secondarily the cruciform angle as well. If the described along with your sounds like either weak or ill fitting trigger safety tab don't fix your issues. Get that armor's plate on and post some picks of your striker engagement. BTW: I have seen some really weird and off the wall stuff through the years with self appointed "Glock Armor's" builds on Glocks, aftermarket frame and mixes of parts just adds possibilities for more weirdness. It only takes one thing or a combo of two lesser strange things to equal an unsafe or at best a "ragged edge" firearm just looking for a time and place to happen, like maybe fine for the first couple hundred but then something wears in and now you have an issue four or five range trips later. James Yeah, I have an armorers backplate. I've got about 50% engagement on the seer. The Long Ranger trigger puts the cruciform right to the edge of the ramps, and I'd guess that's about 1/8 of the side tabs. That's what gives it the nice reset. Still have 50% engagement with a full mag. Safety checks on the cruciform all check out. Can't make it fall off. Well, I CAN make it fall off, but it involves a screwdriver wedged down the front and prying up and back, but it takes a lot of pressure. More than is necessary for a good test.
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by Ancient Order » Fri May 27, 2022 4:07 pm WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:16 amSoo my Long Ranger shoe has the screws for the safety and the pivot, does yours? I ask this cause if you extend the trigger safety as far as you can go at the same time that you tighten the screw for it you can slightly adjust its angle/pivot etc. and cause it to catch the frame as it should. I had to do this on my DP build till I found the sweet spot. I think this occurs when tightening down the safety screw as it is slightly pulling the safety forwards as it’s tightened down. The V2 frames don’t have the little bump inside the guard either do they? If you heat up that area slightly with a blowdryer and then pull/bend it out slightly with a needle nose this will also work. Yes, mine also has the screws for the safety and pivot. No, the V2 frames don't have the nubbin, only the C frames. The safety would probably be touching the nubbin on a C frame. Not sure if that would make a difference, but it might. The trigger safety is definitely a problem. Several drop tests with full mag of dummies and it fails half the time. I'm actually glad it failed the first time I dropped it otherwise I might have missed this problem. Near as I can tell, the inertia induced by the drop causes the trigger to travel downward, but the trigger safety just slides out of the way allowing the trigger to fire. I put in a call to Ranger Proof, but long weekend, so might not hear back until next week. Meantime, I might play around with the safety screw and see if I can make a difference. Hesitant to bend the frame, but I know what you mean. What's the first rule of gunsmithing?
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by RAMjetta » Fri May 27, 2022 8:32 am
James wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:18 amIf you don't already have one, I suggest you get or make an armor's slide cover to check sear / striker engagement on every build you do. Also don't forget to do the a la Johnny Glock magwell to bench "hammer test". The cruciform need to be tested with an impact to the magwell to see it will fall and release the striker. If you have an overtravel adjustment that is the place to start looking for issues, I like to see a 1/8 of side tab sitting on the shelf. Secondarily the cruciform angle as well. If the described along with your sounds like either weak or ill fitting trigger safety tab don't fix your issues. Get that armor's plate on and post some picks of your striker engagement. BTW: I have seen some really weird and off the wall stuff through the years with self appointed "Glock Armor's" builds on Glocks, aftermarket frame and mixes of parts just adds possibilities for more weirdness. It only takes one thing or a combo of two lesser strange things to equal an unsafe or at best a "ragged edge" firearm just looking for a time and place to happen, like maybe fine for the first couple hundred but then something wears in and now you have an issue four or five range trips later. James I was gonna suggest the same. I believe Acient has an Armorers back plate though. Definitely sounds like a trigger bar to trigger housing relationship issue. And yes please post some pics so we can see what's going on. The cruciform is falling off the shelf for some reason, which as We4ponXYZ said, could be the trigger bar or it could be an out of spec bar or out of spec housing. Are they both OEM?
JettaMan OUT!
by RAMjetta » Fri May 27, 2022 8:27 am
WE4PONXYZ wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:25 amAlso I wouldn’t worry about getting that type of response from “Ranger Proof” Andy is a really great dude, always awesome and extremely helpful in my experience. I cosign this as well. Andy will get you straight one way or another. Tell him Chad and RAMjetta sent ya.
JettaMan OUT!
by James » Fri May 27, 2022 4:18 am
If you don't already have one, I suggest you get or make an armor's slide cover to check sear / striker engagement on every build you do. Also don't forget to do the a la Johnny Glock magwell to bench "hammer test". The cruciform need to be tested with an impact to the magwell to see it will fall and release the striker. If you have an overtravel adjustment that is the place to start looking for issues, I like to see a 1/8 of side tab sitting on the shelf. Secondarily the cruciform angle as well. If the described along with your sounds like either weak or ill fitting trigger safety tab don't fix your issues. Get that armor's plate on and post some picks of your striker engagement. BTW: I have seen some really weird and off the wall stuff through the years with self appointed "Glock Armor's" builds on Glocks, aftermarket frame and mixes of parts just adds possibilities for more weirdness. It only takes one thing or a combo of two lesser strange things to equal an unsafe or at best a "ragged edge" firearm just looking for a time and place to happen, like maybe fine for the first couple hundred but then something wears in and now you have an issue four or five range trips later. James
by WE4PONXYZ » Fri May 27, 2022 12:25 am
Also I wouldn’t worry about getting that type of response from “Ranger Proof” Andy is a really great dude, always awesome and extremely helpful in my experience.
by WE4PONXYZ » Fri May 27, 2022 12:16 am
Soo my Long Ranger shoe has the screws for the safety and the pivot, does yours? I ask this cause if you extend the trigger safety as far as you can go at the same time that you tighten the screw for it you can slightly adjust its angle/pivot etc. and cause it to catch the frame as it should. I had to do this on my DP build till I found the sweet spot. I think this occurs when tightening down the safety screw as it is slightly pulling the safety forwards as it’s tightened down. The V2 frames don’t have the little bump inside the guard either do they? If you heat up that area slightly with a blowdryer and then pull/bend it out slightly with a needle nose this will also work.
by Ancient Order » Fri May 27, 2022 12:08 am
Thought I had tested the trigger safety before, but just checked it again. No go. The safety doesn't stop the trigger, it just slides up the frame, depressing itself. The backside of the safety is slightly rounded, which I think is just bad geometry and doesn't provide a positive stop. This is only the second non-OEM trigger shoe I've used. OEM triggers always work. I might call Ranger Proof and see what they say about it. Hopefully they don't say "oh, it's a P80 and not a Glock". As far as the front drop, yeah, I suspected the threaded barrel might be a culprit, although I've got a 940C with a threaded barrel that doesn't do that. Must be the Rook rails, haha. Just for giggles, I've got a Timney trigger I might swap in, but honestly, the trigger pin was a MAJOR pita to install with the RP shoe and Tyrant slide stop. Definitely some tolerance stacking issues.
by WE4PONXYZ » Thu May 26, 2022 10:41 pm
Also have you tested the trigger safety for function? Essentially grabbing either side of the trigger without touching the safety and pulling back to see if the safety stops on the frame as it should and doesn’t break.
by WE4PONXYZ » Thu May 26, 2022 10:31 pm First step, switch out trigger with one you know doesn’t fail the drop test on another build. Step 2. If that one fails too then adjust the connector angle. If it doesn’t then it’s the trigger bar and I would suggest replacing or if it’s the RP that uses the small screws then switch them around and retighten will sometimes do the trick. Cont. step 2 connector? Drop test again if it fails then adjust connector the other way till it doesn’t. Step 3. Replace the striker/ possible out of spec seer maybe. Step 4. Idk scream at the sky and prey to John Wayne. Basically process of elimination starting with the trigger bar. It sucks but plus side it will speed up your takedown/assembly time even more. Edit: As far as the eject and load when dropped on nose, if this doesn’t happen on your other builds. This could be due to the threaded barrel, great craftsmanship (smooth action) and our good old friend gravity. https://youtube.com/shorts/mBTOv53i_2I?feature=share
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